"...societies, cultures and religions are measured by the values they build upon and not by what they destroy"

Reader Noumena, left an interesting comment on our post below. We want to address the points he raised and offer our responses.

Firstly, we wish to thank Noumena, for his interest and contributions. His comments are much appreciated.

Noumena takes us to task for asserting that

"no one except Israel is in a position to admonish (or, a fortiori, praise) Israel."

As is often the case, the issues under discussion are clouded by unclear and unshared definitions.

Clearly, anyone or any nation can admonish- or heap praise- on anyone else. That said, simply admonishing or heaping praise does not make that exercise valid or credible. For example, the GIA, with it's record of justification of rape and dismemberment of children, would understandably not be considered a very credible source when talking of protecting children. They have pretty much disqualified themselves from being taken seriously in the context of civilized behavior, even if te argument they might make on any given day might actually be valid. That would be like giving the Nazi regime good marks for governance because they made the trains run on time. Credibility is not a commodity earned in a vacuum.

Now, you rightly say that my use of language, at times is footloose and fancy free (my references to 'The Arabs.'). For that, I apologize. In my defence, long time readers are familiar with my beliefs and positions.

So as to further clarify my position and ideas, I will repeat them, as best I can.

Virtually everything about the Arab world today sickens me. That said, the position the Arabs find themselves in are in no way a reflection of the Arabs themselves. Why I Hate Islam clarifies my positions.

Like the Jews, the Arabs have suffered their own holocaust of a sort, albeit of a different kind, and at the hands of their own. The Arab world has been victimized by it's own leadership, so that those tyrants and leaders might consolidate their positions of cruelty and corruption. Those leaders deliberately and in a most cruel and calculating way, have co-opted a religion to serve their own needs. Does anyone believe that religious 'leaders' are selected for anything but their commitment to support the policies of a regime? Does anyone really believe that a religious leader would be allowed to preach in opposition to the regime that pays their salary? Does anyone believe that a religious authority who disagreed with the regime and said so, would have a long and happy life?

There is no group of people that have been more spit upon, kicked and disrespected than the Arabs. I have written extensively about these matters, in greater depth.

One needs no advanced degree in psychology to understand that after decades of abuse, the Arabs are probably the most dysfunctional people on the face of this earth. They are not in the position or capable of asserting what is and isn't appropriate behavior or force in the context of the current crisis.

As was noted, nothing happens in a vacuum. After decades of direct existential threats (most recently from Iran), Israelis might be taking Arab threats seriously. After decades of anti Israel and anti Jewish venom and vitriol promising everything from 'rivers of blood' to fatwas issued that announce that rape of women and children is incumbent upon Muslims, the Israelis have had enough.

When 'ITBACH AL YAHUDI!' is considered a valid theology and political ideology, the Israelis have every right to take those words seriously. The Jews- and the west- heard those words, in a different language, 60 odd years ago and failed to act. When you consider that that very ideology is lionized by the Arab world ("we'll finish what Hitler started," and Mein Kampf is the perennial best seller) it is hard to fault the Israelis for responding with anything less than a heavy hand.

Might there be abuses? Surely. Abuses occur in every conflict and war. What separates cultures and societies is how they deal with those abuses. Arab world outrage at Israeli 'disproportionate' force (and American excesses that have occurred in Iraq), is mirrored by Arab world silence (those few that had the temerity to protest suffered greatly) at the excesses that occur within the Arab world itself. There were no frenzied mobs protesting Saddam's decades of excesses.

One cannot defend some of an ideology of hate and reject another part of that ideology. For example, Zarqawi and now his successor in Iraq, have called for the murder of Shiites. There are those that are willing to tolerate and ignore that kind of visceral hatred because Zarqawi, et al, have also called for- and claimed responsibility for the death of innocent Americans. Somehow, that made Zarqawi's evil 'acceptable. That kind of acceptance of evil cannot be placed at the feet of Arab tyrants regimes- that kind of blindness and justification is a clear moral failure and an even clearer picture of dysfunction.

Parity and equality among societies and cultures are not commodities that are bestowed in a vacuum. They are earned. As I have noted, what makes a poet a poet are not words, carefully chosen. What makes a poet a poet is that those chosen words mean something to others and not only to oneself.

There is a difference between shared interests and shared values. Too often, the differences are blurred.

At this moment in time, much of Europe and America do not share the same interests. We may be at odds over Iraq, the war on terror or trade tariffs. That does not mean we do not share the same values- and shared values are what defines a relationship, not shared interests. That distinction is often lost in today's 'packaged' political environment.

We are not going to take seriously those who support- or choose to ignore- calls that reinforce bigotry and hatred. We are not going to share the values of those who choose to support- or ignore, calls to subjugate or persecute women, gays or minorities. We will share values with those that choose to support- or ignore- honor killings, FGM, fatwas that endorse the killing of those who disagree or offend some, etc. We cannot share the values of those who would deny the rights of others, to life.

If the Arab and much of the the Islamic world want to be taken seriously by western democracies, they must address us in a way we find credible. It is not up to us to make ourselves appeal to tyrannical regimes and societies where hate and bigotry are de riguer. The issue of shared values is far more more important to the west than shared interests. Those interests will surely change. Real values do not. Western relationships are not predicated on issues that go far deeper than momentary interests. As we have noted many times, societies, cultures and religions are measured by the values they build upon and not by what they destroy.There is no getting around that reality.

Those who believe that we can be fooled into thinking that we can share values that are so antithetical to our own, are sadly mistaken. They are foolish to assume we will abandon our way of life and values and accept other values that are less tolerant and that we will subjugate freedom.

I know, Noumena, this is not what you wanted to hear. I know- and understand, that you seek- and even need- to present a parity, an equality, between Israel, the west and the Arab world, where one clearly does not and cannot exist under the current circumstances.

This is not because the Arabs are at fault. The lack of parity and moral equality is the direct result of corrupt Arab tyrannies that have foisted the holocaust an the Arab world that I referred to earlier.

I have been to the region and have spent time in more than a few Arab countries, from the Gulf to Morocco. I have seen despair and failure from highrises to the wadis and I have seen kindnesses from the loud Souk to the small run down Masjids.

The Religious Policeman, a Saudi blogger, in Give Me A Child, noted

Imagine that in the West, you had a school system which sat the children down each day and fed them a tumbler of whisky. They might not like it at first, but they would eventually get used to it. Later on, they would start to look forward to it. By the time they left school, a fair proportion of them would be alcoholics. Perhaps not a problem if they kept it to themselves, but the ones who went out and drove over people or otherwise killed them would start to be a concern. So you would have to start a program of drying-out clinics, to cure them. And they might be successful, although there's no such thing as a cured alcoholic, just one who hasn't had a drink for a length of time. And you might just question the wisdom of spending money and effort creating alcoholics, only to have to spend more money and effort to cure them later. In Saudi Arabia, we don't feed our children alcohol. Instead, we feed them race hate...their hatred extends not only to Jews worldwide, but also the countries that are seen to support them - North America, Europe, Australasia. And a proportion of these decide to do something about it, and sign up with the terrorist groups.

Generations that have had alcohol forced down their throats for generations, are dysfunctional. They are not in a position to discuss what is and isn't appropriate behavior.